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[Off Topic] Lora 868Mhz Inside EU is that a problem?

 
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hmmpic



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[Off Topic] Lora 868Mhz Inside EU is that a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:43 am     Reply with quote

I know this is off topic, but i need some brainpower on my concern.

We have build a cloud sensor system. It is build with PIC 16Fxxx and a LORA module.

The module are "RED certified".

Now in the latest hour before production, we have problem about the EU law for using such LORA 868 system.

Is there any rules or law there say something about the LORA freq. As i can see all kind of LORA unit are been used all over. But maybe it is private person there just use them. We are a company there sell our system, and that is something else...

We plan to use 868 or other +-freq, communication is pure Module to Module so nothing LORA-WAN!

Anyone?
newguy



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:07 am     Reply with quote

Can't speak directly to the EU rules and restrictions, but here in Canada we have to be compliant with IC (Industry Canada) rules (which are basically a cut & paste of the US FCC rules).

The EU's license free band is somewhere in the range of 868MHz, and it sounds like that's the band that your RF transceivers are using. That's also the frequency that the EU certified LoRa modules use (and it sound like you're also using, but just not the LoRa MAC layer).

The emissions (RF) rules are in place just to ensure that devices can't (or won't) cause interference with other devices/users. Things which the regulatory agencies are concerned with are:
- transmitted power
- antenna gain (transmitted power + max antenna gain must be below some limit)
- total "on" (transmit time)
- out of band interference

There are others, but these are the major points they're concerned with. If you used a "off the shelf" transceiver, you're probably safe in terms of transmitted power and out of band interference. Since you're not using the LoRa MAC layer, you do have be careful about total on time because there are hard limits in that regard. If you are using a transceiver with an integrated antenna or the transceiver has a reference design with a printed antenna, or the reference design has a qualified antenna associated with it, and you used that same antenna, you may qualify under the transceiver's certification (if it has EU certification). At any rate, it really needs to be checked. I don't know how the EU works, but here in north america, there are quite a number of testing labs which can run the product through the tests and produce a compliance report.

Two biggest concerns based on what you said are the transmitted power/antenna gain and the total transmit (on) time. The rules around LoRa and total on time mean that your maximum packet payload depends on the spread factor used by the transceiver (with lower spread factors supporting more payload). If you made sure to ensure that you don't exceed the maximum on time despite the spread factor, you should be okay. This is the kind of thing that a testing agency will verify.
Ttelmah



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:51 pm     Reply with quote

868MHz Lora is legal in the EU, but the _unit_ has to be approved. You will
need to get your unit approved before it is legal to use. Lora also _requires_
a maximum of 1% duty cycle on the traffic. If you are exceeding this,
your unit is not Lora compliant.
Device to device, is not a legal Lora topology. It requires a gateway.
asmallri



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:30 pm     Reply with quote

Quote:
Device to device, is not a legal Lora topology. It requires a gateway.


LoRa and LoRaWAN are being mixed up.

LoRa describes a radio link Media Access Control mechanism. There is no concept of a legal LoRa topology. You can use this in whatever technology you want but you are constrained to the EU rules (far far more restricted than the US rules) on frequency ranges, number of channels and the on-air duty cycle.

LoRaWAN, describes a protocol stack that runs on top of LoRa. The LoRaWAN alliance is an industry body that defines the LoRaWAN stack and the requirements for a device to be considered LoRaWAN compliant. There is no "legal" component to the architecture. However, if you do not have a LoRaWAN compliant device you may not be able to access the LoRaWAN service offered by various service providers.

There is a good forum that you can find lots of helpful information on LoRa, LoRaWAN, including building devices.
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Ttelmah



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:08 pm     Reply with quote

I disagree (at least in the EU).
I've done Lora approval, and also LoraWan.
To get an approval certificate _for Lora_ (not WAN), required a gateway
was used. A lot of customers will not accept kit unless it has a certificate.
hmmpic



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:58 am     Reply with quote

Some confusing.

Just to clear out, The EBYTE, LORA module have CE_RED cert.
The module are using the SEMTECH SX1262, but all params to set the communication is done by the module.
The user can only set the freq, power, and come ID, and LBT, and then ome predefined rf params.
The module are NOT compatible with any kind of LORA-WAN.
The module are made for module to module only traffic.

We use the module as a radio link between a sensor and a server.

The 1% duty is no problem.

@Ttelmah, you say something about a gateway.
Do you mean that we never get our product legally on the market without a gateway? (We only use the module to make a airlink between the sensor and the server).
Ttelmah



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:12 am     Reply with quote

OK. That is what we were told....
Now remember that even if you are using a pre-built module, your device
requires it's own RF certification in the EU. You have to prove that it doesn't
produce unacceptable RF noise, and can survive certain types of interference.
It may simply be that the test lab we used could only test it using a
gateway, but they required the devices to support this before they would
test.
hmmpic



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:43 am     Reply with quote

Does anyone know about a test lab in Denmark or maybe a country close to?
Ttelmah



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:20 am     Reply with quote

Honestly the easiest thing is going to be to talk to one of the certifying
companies.

Now I'd personally 'suspect', that the reason we were required to support
a gateway, was that the certifying company could only test using a
gateway, hence required us to support this (since LoraWan is by far the
more common configuration).

Now, the module being RED certificated, does not imply that your device
automatically 'is' so certified. As soon as the module is attached to another
device, this becomes a 'combined' device, and requires separate certification...

Approvals don't 'carry forward'. Just because a device contains a RED
compliant device, doesn't make the whole device RED compliant.....
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